[Gileh]

This is something I put up on my old journal a while ago, and just rescued from LJ purging as I've since switched my Journal. Be interested if people had different counts/interpretations...

[metagaia]

[paz]

[Gileh]

Unfortunately I don't think you can really dismiss that argument so easily since a) the object of WOTC is not to reach out across cultural boundaries, but to sell copies of D&D to make money.[/quote]

Well you could criticise a company for that. Corporate ethics CAN include things like inclusion and visibility awareness.

[metagaia]

[HDimagination]

I think that I would be careful about how indignant we get on other peoples behalf.   How qualified are we, as a group of middle class white men (on the internet of all places) to have an arguement about the representation of other ethnicities in RPG art?

Could we say that RPGs are very much a white, middle class cultural activity, and if that is the case, is there a problem with the representation of that?

If the aim is to attract a wider ethnic range to the hobby, then there are deeper problems rather than just the aesthetic that the hobby has to deal with, like the fact that there are very few non-western cultural tropes explored in fanasy, and those that are tend to be viewed through a very steriotypical lens, such as the fabuous exotic far east full of martial arts, and samurai.    This can be forgiven though, as most of the writers are white, and treat their own cultural inspartions with the same mish-mash aproach.

Either way, it's very easy to assume that there would be a problem  and over-estimate impact of this, as we are very much outside the issue.

I'd recomend starting a thread on a board with a slightly larger demographic before we start worry about the issue too much.   RPG.net for example?

[HDimagination]

There we go, I've followed my own adivce:

RPGnet thread

[Gileh]

[metagaia]

[Immortal Rites]

well im gonna put my two cents in as im girl so im 'outside the white man thing'.

Doesnt bother me in the slightest!!! The only thing that bothers me is the fact all the women are prettier and have better figures than me lol.

In fact i am proud to say i have never played a female character in a game of D&D i enjoy playing men, especiall of other races (currently a sibbeccai obsessed with death).

I think your looking for problems where there are none. So stop yer whinin and buck up boyo!!!

[HDimagination]

We weren't really too worried about the gender thing here i don't think.   Put it does show that progress can be made.   When I started in the hobby, most illustrations of women in RPG's were relagated to scantily clad princesses needing rescue, scantily clad mages showing off or Scantilly clad temptresses...  







.....sorry just drifted off there a moment, where was I?  Anyway, now it seems things are much better, with women in mostly semsible armour, adventuring along with every-one else.  It's just the opinions of a small minority that think that you gals can't swing a sword like the rest of us.

I'm glad that you can trancend your ethnic boundires and veiw cultural issues with such impartiality!  What's your secret?

[Immortal Rites]

i dont have a secret.... im just sexist against women.

That and i would have made a great bloke.

[Shaphron]

I know most of you have stopped reading this post - but I have only just read it, and fancy joining in. I've actually spent the time to go through the DMG and PHB (didn't bother with the MM, as it will be mostly monsters) and complied the data on a handy table of what races of what colour and sex are depicted in what book, so if anyone cares I've put it up here, along with some conclusions and analysis.

Breifly summarised, I think the racial depictions are ok as they are a)hampered by some races not being able to be black characters (eg black eleves = drow, so not a character) and b) the prevailing climate of the standard d&d world is western, so it's only natural that the characters would evolve in the same way we did and get white skin. Given the common method of transport is by horse, it is unlikely many people would be able to travel very long distances, and so unlilkly to make other colours more common.

The issues I think you have, Gileh, is that you are treating d&d too much like real life - it has it's own world, races and climate, just like ours does, but it has not progressed to the same state we have, so we cannot judge that world by our world standards. You have to look ta it as a complete whole, and see why they've done things the way they have as that makes sense for the world, not because they don't like coloured people, or want to apeal to them.

On a vaguely related note, most MMORPGs I know of have a separate "asian" edition when they market in China and Japan, altering the models to match the oriental body type and colouring, so those companies know who they are appealing to and adapt depending on what country they are in. I don't know how popular D&D is in asian, or african or south american countries. Could you enlighten me, as that would be more relevant to the discussion.

On a marketing note, the front cover of the PHB is a (yellow) dragonborn and a lady who could consievably be considered coloured, depending on how you are feeling, so that hardly goes for the white market. and the front cover of the DMG is a very large red dragon, looking at a crystal ball of the front cover of the PHB - again, not particularly appealing to any one specific demograph, so I think you may be reading too much into it.

I have heard (through Matt) that the designers didn't want a white/male/fighter in any of the books, but the marketing people at wizards of the coast insisted on it. As they did with Magic: the Gathering, making Gerard  included when Sisquay (sp?) was supposed to be the hero. So maybe you're looking at this the wrong way - you want this game to appeal to coloured people, but maybe the overwhelming data is that it is vastly more popular with white people, so they are marketing it perfectly. They would have to do more than depict a black man on the front cover to make the game appealing to someone who doesn't know what it is already. D&D spreads by word of mouth more than by marketing, so it is almost superfelous what they put on the cover so long as it appeals to their current market.

I think I've ranted way too much on this topic, but I hope I've provoked thought in those of you who have actually read this far down!

PS: Immortal Rites - your being female doesn't negate the fact that you are white.

[Gileh]

[metagaia]

[paz]

[paz]

[Gileh]

[/quote]

[Gileh]

[paz]

[metagaia]

[Gileh]

[paz]

[Gileh]

Just wanted to say thanks for the informative and detailed post. If only the rest of the internet was like this .

[Shaphron]

Back again - My comment about you wanting to conform more to real life was about you wanting the (human) racial variety in game which you find in real life - not anything to do with any form of -ism found in real life and transposed to in-game. The problem being, the fantasy races often take over, as being far more interesting than playing a human, and as pointed out a lot of the fantasy races *can't* be depicted as funny colours, as that denotes a different race, normally of a different alignment. Drow and Duargar being two examples. The other problem in expecting the human (and human-like, eg halflings) ethnicities to be shown is that which I said earlier - being based in a European Medieval setting, it is unlikely that much travelling in character would have been done for widespread ethnic spreading, so those individuals would be a minority. Thus making the game world more believeable. I personally wouldn't find it very believeable if a world which seemed very similar to Eurpoe geographically and climatically was mostly populated with black/brown/yellow and otherwise coloured individuals, with white ethnics having the same proportion as any other colouring - eg 20 brown, 20 black, 20 yellow, 20 red and 20 white, unless there were the technological (either through science or magic) developments to allow almost free travel which had been around for at least 3 generations.

Others have ahppilly explaianed the reason we assume a medieval Eupoean setting for D&D - that being the culture and inspiration upon which it is based. If you would like to run a game in a different culture, chances are at some point a supplement was done on it, in sime edition of D&D (I believe in 2nd Ed there was an African Tribal supplement, but I'm not positive). Those supplements provide the racial differences, new artwork showing such, and cultural differences such as correct weaponry, games, mannerisms and such. As far as I'm aware, these do not sell nearly as well, so they are not always repeated for new editions of D&D - oriental in some form or another is normally the only prevailling option, and that's probably because we have odd steriotypes about those cultures ourselves - I hesitate to try to work out how accurate those supplements are from chineese / japanese reality.

From a female perspective, Roleplay is one of the activites I do which probably has the least sexism in it - there are normally an equal number of Queens to Kings, unlike the work place where high managers are normally predominatly male, especially managing directors. I cannot remember reading a roleplaying supplement and felling restricted as to what I oculd play because I wanted to be female. The one thing I would say is, despite this, there will always be sexist players, no matter how the roleplay setting is written. I would blame the players and GM for the example you gave, far more than the d&D game, no matter what feeble excuse they gave (it's like saying Marilyn MAnson made me shoot my friends...) The only time I have experiences first hand sexism was from a player, not the game. This was in LRP, and this complete moron turned around to me and said "You fight like a man". Everyone else went silent, as they knew me quite well. Needless to say, I beat the idiot up regularly (in character, the player was never harmed in any way, apart from him ego) in the guise of "weapons practice". He didn't change, but then some people wont. I'm more likely to come accross sexism - especially unconcious sexism - from other females than from males. Some women are convince they can't fight, and either play people who need protecting or ment if they have the choice. This annoys me far more than men being sexist - I can ignore a man who is sexist, but a women who really believes that she's less than a man is an itch under my skin I cannot scratch. I hate it.

Other gender issues - transgender, hermaphrodites etc - I don't think you will find anyone who finds it particularly offensive that these do not play a large part of any setting. You will probably come accross at least a little bit - and most likely in LRP - the issue of men dressing as women, and it's normally absolutely fine. Some tabeltop settings may have the odd character who does this too. As it is not commonly discussed in RL - those who do do it often keep it secret for one reason or another - it is logical to assume the same in game. People who undergo change-sex experiences - does happen in D&D - one of the most famous items I know of the the belt which curses you to change gender, and you cannot remove it without a remove curse spell. It's generally not otherwise considered a big part of any roleplay setting - in LRP it's extremely hard to phys-rep, on tabletop the players have made a decision at charecter gen as to what gender they want to be - changing it on them is likely to make them upset. For fluff purposes - in the setting - how is this likely to have occurred? There isn't normally the medical science to do this (I'm assuming the standard D&D setting - if you base it in a technological future you will have to change the setting yourself manually) and what self-respecting wizard is likely to spend a large portion of time working out how to do a spell which would be fairly high level and of extremely limited use - even if they liked making cursed belts. None of the "normal" people in the setting would be able to afford their spell, as it would have to be fairly high level, so unless an extremely wealthy prince really wanted to be a princess and happened to have a clever wizard as a friend, who would research such a spell? On the hermaphrodite front, how common are they really? You quite often get a hermaphrodite God, tho - one who can apprea male or female or both, normally the God of desire. If there's a God, it's possible there may be the odd person - but who would tell anyone other than their intended? Anything which is different is likely to promote misunderstanding, so why leave yourself open for pain? On a different gender issue, you may come accross Eunuchs in a D&D game, this is significantly more likely than the other options you mentioned. They are more often mentioned in fantasy books, and so are more likely to be incorporated into the game by GMs. On an artwork front - where this started - how extactly would you depict someone who was transgender/post-op or a hermaphrodite without making it a certificate 18 book?

Regarding homosexuality, it's not normally mentioned, but then neither is heterosexuality. I don't believe a single relationship of any form is mentioned in the core books, it not being detailed information about a setting. In setting books, it will depend mostly on the setting as to if it's included or not - I can't think of a single example (although Paz has already given 2), but then, I can't think of a single example of any relationship - not even in the setting I'm running, other than it being noted that the Queen is looking for a husband to beget heirs - I don't believe a woman would be able to do this, and her sexual preference is not mentioned, so I don't know if that is a good example or not. Sexual issues are normally avoided completely in setting books, as any form of sexual content requires an age certificate to limit who you can sell it to. They did do some form of "sexual content" book in 3rd ed, but from all accounts the book was dreadful. Most players don't want to be in a game which deals with sex either - how often have you been told, when you've said your character is spending money on ale and whores, to roll a dice to determine how well you did in bed? It's just not interesting for the players, they don't want to do it as it holds up plot, fun and generally beating the crap out of orcs.

What exactly would you like to see Gileh? Keep in mind that you are suggesting for D&D, and not for a modern or futeristic setting, but one whcih is historical-fantasy. What exactly are you objecting to?

[Gileh]

[Gileh]

Although I am capable of recognizing the steps taken by the D&D core writers in the last edition:
Of humans they write:

[metagaia]

There are a couple of interesting points brought up in the newest round of debate, but first I would like to get some thoughts of my chest about black elves.

By typical thought, an elf is white because a black elf is a drow, whoch led to the thought "Is it possible to have black elves?" To which I will elaborate on my hypothesis "possible but unlikely" (sources all 3.5 PHB p18)

First of all you need to define how much of an elf you need to be to be an elf.  Half-elves are created by the product of humans and elves, and while they have elf blood, they have different stats to elves, so I feel disclined to catagorise them as such.  However, if half elves are fertile, they can almost certainly mate with elves, making a 3/4 elf etc.  Thus, I am going to make the arbitary distiction of 7/8 elf as elf (measuring the differences to the first generation of my breeding programme.)

Given this, we start with a minimum 8 black humans and 14 elves (to rule out incest).  These breed and produce 8 half-elves. I am going to conservativly assume that elf skin colour is dominant, like the green eyes, thus, all first-generation half eleves woiuld be white.  These half elves now breed with each other, until each couple produces a black half-elf using the same logic that two green-eyed half-elves can prodice a non-green-eyed half elf.

These 4 black half-elves now breed with 4 different elves to produce white 3/4 elves, and they in turn repeat the process to make 2 black 3/4 elves.  Then breed these with 2 elves etc and you should emerge with one non-drow black elf.

Obiously, these elves are not featured in the artwork since they would be very rare, but neverless they could exist, in theory at least.  

[Gileh]

[HDimagination]

[Gileh]

[dedindahed]

[Gileh]

[paz]

[Gileh]

[paz]

[HDimagination]

[Gileh]

[paz]

[Gileh]

Very good points, HD

[HDimagination]

[Gileh]

[HDimagination]

[Gileh]

[metagaia]

[Shaphron]

Gileh - I now feel the need to explain myself. I was not being personal - I was replying to you directly as you were the one who raised the issue and asked the questions. I said you were expecting D&D to be too similar to the real world - not that you confused the two, but in the context of real-life ethnic diversity being transposed to a fantasy-medieval Eupropean setting. nothing else. I also asked what you were looking for and really complaining about, as you had started the post with a question about ethnic diversity within D&D artwork, then went on to complain about gender, sexual and ghetto inequalities along with racial, and I wanted to try to qualify what we were discussing - trying to answer, or at least share my view - on every point you made meant my post was VERY long, and I was trying to avoid that, or at least whittle down what was under discussion, as this has now branched out to be a rather political discussion on all sorts of inequality, rather vaguely to do with D&D. I apologise if this has upset you, I wont make the mistake of doing it again.

regarding you desires...

[paz]

This thread was originally archived to a hidden area as it discussed a sensitive subjects, and contained real names of some of the participants. I've gone through and edited any real names I've found to be their forum nicknames. This means a couple of the posts don't make much sense, but this was a worthy discussion which doesn't deserve to be lost for ever.