Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 1068 Playing: Pathfinder.
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:58 am Post subject: General rules.
I was going to put a sticky on this Sub-forum, clarifying the general rules that have emerged over time (as we seem to be getting new people coming in to play ). So I far as I understand they are:
Vintage ban list (suggested by dedindahed here, just for full disclosure Skullclamp is not on this - its banned in Legacy, which is our other reasonable choice for a ban list).
Yes, we play *with* mana burn. I've recently read the reason they removed it in 2010, and it turned out they only removed it because "not many new players realised it was a rule". Which is a sh!t reason, and as such we should play with it, as it a) makes some (about 60, tbh) cards work much better and b) it teaches and enforces sensible use of mana and mana generation. _________________ If in danger or in doubt,
Run in circles, scream and shout.
Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 1068 Playing: Pathfinder.
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject:
Whilst I have sympathy towards the elegance of the mana burn rule. I don't think we can just arbitrary change a rule that has been in place for over a year.
Anyone new coming to the club will not have prepared for it, and therefore we may put people off (particularly if cards designed to take advantage of it are used).
I certainly have not considered it when buying cards and building libraries, because its not in the current rules. _________________ Mass Effect 3 ending: WTF was that???
Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 948 Playing: Pathfinder Society Planning: Aces and Eights: Shattered Frontier
Location: Northwich
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:04 pm Post subject:
Teflon Billy wrote:
Whilst I have sympathy towards the elegance of the mana burn rule. I don't think we can just arbitrary change a rule that has been in place for over a year.
Anyone new coming to the club will not have prepared for it, and therefore we may put people off (particularly if cards designed to take advantage of it are used).
I certainly have not considered it when buying cards and building libraries, because its not in the current rules.
You could strictly speaking use the same argument for free mulligans. Personally I don't mind either, since I do not normally build decks with mana burn in mind, but I can see both points of view.
I would also suggest a ruling on proxies is needed as well. _________________ The Master can blow me, Monkey-Suit. Bloodrayne 2
You *can't* consider mana burn when buying cards, as it directly affects about 60 cards in the entire back catalogue. Plus, most people who come to play at the club are more older players than current ones, so I don't see the problem... If we're not to change rules we shouldn't have any free mulligans at all. Plus, you *have* to untap before your draw. The rulessay so...
I would also argue that as part of what I understood the magic at the club to be was for casual players, that implies ones who do not update their cards regularly or necessarily keep up with current trends. In this light keeping mana burn is better as it works with the old cards most of us posses, and doesn't interfere in any way with new cards. If we do not include mana burn as a rule then one of my whole decks is effectively halved in effectiveness, which implies I would need to update it to fit in, thus meaning it's not for casual players.
Finally, I simply do not understand your objection to it, as it is a simple rule which hardly ever comes up and does not affect most people's game play at all, it just makes you sensible with mana production. It's extremely rare for someone to ever take damage from it unless someone is trying to hurt you with it specifically.
Also, i've just read up on the Vintage vs Legacy, and while Legacy is a banned list, Vintage is a restricted list - any card on the list you can play at most once, but they are not banned.
Back to mana burn, I don't really see the problem with including it, but if you really don't like it I guess I wont make (more of) a fuss. But I am warning you that if I use my tap out deck then I would like to have a game rule of including mana burn, as when they removed the rule they nerfed a good few cards which are in that deck, for no good apparent reason I can see. _________________ If in danger or in doubt,
Run in circles, scream and shout.
Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 1068 Playing: Pathfinder.
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject:
metagaia wrote:
You could strictly speaking use the same argument for free mulligans....
Quite true, I don't mind dropping it. Though I would argue that it has a negligible effect on the game if everyone's doing it.
Shaphron wrote:
If we do not include mana burn as a rule then one of my whole decks is effectively halved in effectiveness...
...does not affect most people's game play at all...It's extremely rare for someone to ever take damage from it unless someone is trying to hurt you with it specifically....
I find these statements contradictory, how can it have little effect on the game and yet one of your libraries would be halved in effectiveness? .
Obviously it would have a big effect in a game where you were using that library. .
But at the end of the day, there's nothing actually stopping you having a game with Mana Burn. You'd just need to get the players to agree it before you start.
Shaphron wrote:
...if I use my tap out deck then I would like to have a game rule of including mana burn...
I'm happy to give that a go . To include Mana burn for that game.
metagaia wrote:
...I would also suggest a ruling on proxies is needed as well...
Personally I've got no problem with proxies, because sadly MtG as a game has a financial barrier to entry and that naturally limits the number of players/libraries. _________________ Mass Effect 3 ending: WTF was that???
Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 948 Playing: Pathfinder Society Planning: Aces and Eights: Shattered Frontier
Location: Northwich
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:22 pm Post subject:
Well I'm in favour of the restricted idea since this is a casual magic playing environment and thus will not penalise players for having picked up one of those cards in a booster 7 years ago.
With regards to mana burn, I do see the contradiction as well, evidently you have considered mana burn when constructing your deck (though I am curious to get more information as to specifically which cards take advantage of the mana burn in your deck)
Simplest way would be to set up a forum poll on the forum to get the 'default' setting, and can be changed in the game by unanimous agreement by the players. Can't do it myself since I don't have moderator control over the sub-forum
Edit: I meant on this forum thread. Naturally I could just create a new thread but I do not wish to clutter the forum without purpose. _________________ The Master can blow me, Monkey-Suit. Bloodrayne 2
I believe I am the most affected by proxies.
I have a couple of decks with alot of proxies.
The advantage to me of using proxies in the past was to build decks and learn how they work without spending alot of money.
Now it means variety in my decks between games.
This may apear as an argument for the use of proxies.
It is simply a point of view and you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. (Sorry couldn't resist).
The only differance it makes to me is what decks I bring with me.
As long as we agreed to keep it cheap and friendly I will be happy.
Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 948 Playing: Pathfinder Society Planning: Aces and Eights: Shattered Frontier
Location: Northwich
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:33 pm Post subject:
Mat wrote:
I believe I am the most affected by proxies.
I have a couple of decks with alot of proxies.
The advantage to me of using proxies in the past was to build decks and learn how they work without spending alot of money.
Now it means variety in my decks between games.
This may apear as an argument for the use of proxies.
It is simply a point of view and you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. (Sorry couldn't resist).
The only differance it makes to me is what decks I bring with me.
As long as we agreed to keep it cheap and friendly I will be happy.
Oh indeed, I have no problem with proxies at all. I was merely thinking it should be made clear so that anyone new coming to the club knows the stance (which seems to be heavily in favour) _________________ The Master can blow me, Monkey-Suit. Bloodrayne 2
Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 1068 Playing: Pathfinder.
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:52 pm Post subject:
metagaia wrote:
Well I'm in favour of the restricted idea since this is a casual magic playing environment and thus will not penalise players for having picked up one of those cards in a booster 7 years ago...
So that's the Vintage one right? (again full disclosure - Skullclamp is not mentioned on this list at all so it would not be banned or restricted. Not that I'm suddenly going to use them in every library, just putting it out there).
I suppose we should have a poll for this as well if anyone wants Legacy.
metagaia wrote:
Simplest way would be to set up a forum poll on the forum to get the 'default' setting, and can be changed in the game by unanimous agreement by the players. Can't do it myself since I don't have moderator control over the sub-forum
'Tis done, I have the power! Mwhahahaa . I've now added you to the moderator list.
Mat wrote:
As long as we agreed to keep it cheap and friendly I will be happy.
Say it loud brother! .
_________________ Mass Effect 3 ending: WTF was that???
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). So I far as I understand they are:
.
.
. To include Mana burn for that game.
. I've now added you to the moderator list.
.